Scientific and political debates
@ 2008-06-28 - 12:23:38I said I would post something about scientific debate vs political debate. These are some very ill-formed ideas which fit into a wider complex of ideas which I’ve been thinking about for a long time, well, more or less since I did my PhD. Maybe if I pull them all together they’ll make a book, who knows?
I’ve been inspired by recent debates round here (among other things) to think about the differences, and similarities, between these two modes of discourse – sorry, a bit of sociologese there, make that ‘ways of discussing the world’ – and how they overlap. Maybe there’s a spectrum, with at one end the classic scientific method, and at the other, oh, I don’t know, voting on the latest Big Brother, maybe. No, scrub that, I’m getting distracted.
Recent work that I’ve done – going back a couple of years now, because basically I haven’t done ANYTHING intellectual since last summer – has focused on analysing contributions to the public debate on GM, looking at what people base their ideas on, where they come from, and what are recognised as legitimate truth claims. In this work, I have used concepts developed by Geoffrey Vickers, a particular guru of mine. He talks about statements of fact and statements of value, and the differences between the two. Statements of fact are independently verifiable – so, ‘this box is red’ is a statement of fact (if we leave aside philosophical discussions about the definitions of ‘this’, ‘box’, ‘is’ and ‘red’), while ‘This box is beautiful’ is a statement of value. Statements of value are inherently subjective – they require an observer – although they can acquire a form of ‘objectivity’ if enough people agree with them – thus the statement ‘The Mona Lisa is beautiful’ is widely considered an objective statement, although it is not equivalent in its objectivity to a statement like: ‘the Mona Lisa is a painting in oils on canvas’.
Oh, sorry, now I’ve really got down into the nit-picking, and I can feel myself being drawn into discussions about objectivity and subjectivity and facts and values… and something someone said a few months back about beliefs and opinions… I love this stuff, I know, I’m a sick, sick woman…
But to get back to my original debate – because to be honest it’s time to get back to work and stop scribbling in cafes [Ed’s note: this was written on Wednesday, it’s just that I’m only typing it up now, on Saturday morning] – the distinction I wanted to make is that scientific debates ultimately rest on judgements of fact, not value. It is possible to settle a scientific debate by an appeal to the evidence – indeed, this is the only legitimate way of doing so. This is not to say that this is easy, far from it, for all sorts of reasons, which I will expand on if I ever get round to writing that book (or even any more papers). But the point I was trying to make is that political debates – at the opposite end of the spectrum – are entirely based on judgements of value. It is not philosophically possible to say that one argument is ‘better’ than another purely on the basis of its content. I can argue with you forever over whether Warhol’s Marilyn is more beautiful than the Mona Lisa, but we cannot settle this by an appeal to judgements of fact, only perhaps by canvassing the opinions of others and seeing where the balance of preference lies - a democratic approach, if you like. Damn, I seem to have wandered away into aesthetic rather than political debates, that gives me another category.
Political debates can, of course, be settled by an appeal to ethics, but this is also inherently subjective.
What I wanted to say was this (and I really DO have to get back to work now) is that with factual/scientific debates, it is possible to reach some kind of resolution in terms of an appeal to an external standard. Different arguments can be shown to have a stronger basis than others. They are not all of equal value, different opinions which should all be accorded equal respect. Thus, it is wrong to say that Creationism is equal in value to evolution because they are alternative ‘theories’. There exists an external standard against which they can both be compared – and one, evolution, has a huge body of objective evidence to support it, while belief in creationism rests only on faith.
And now I have spent long enough in this café and sadly I really have to get home and get some work done.
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I don't entirely agree with you. There is a lot of overlap between the two modes of discourse. Political arguments have statistics as evidence: unemployment and inflation are both lower with my party than yours, child poverty is lower, standard of living is higher and so on.
I think it's belief and ideology that are the opposite of scientific debate, not politics.
Tom.
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-03 @ 12:45 |
Hmmm, maybe I need to clarify my terms a bit more.
'Political' was just a handy label that I grabbed. As I said, there is also aesthetic. And you're correct to point out that empirical evidence can also be used in political debates, that had also occurred to me. I did say it was a spectrum.
But 'belief' and 'ideology' are rather general and don't really capture what I was trying to express. Besides, it would be disingenuous to claim that they don't have any role to play in science.
Thanks for your input. I'll give it all some more thought when I have more time.
| SeasideMan pro 2008-07-03 @ 12:49 |
Belief and ideology have no part in "good" science, and there's nothing disingenuous about saying that.
This is an interesting subject and I'll be keen to read anything else you choose to post on it.
Tom.
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-03 @ 13:29 |
But don't you think 'good science' in itself is an ideologically loaded term?
| SeasideMan pro 2008-07-03 @ 13:35 |
No, I don't. In this context, "good" just means done accurately and without bias, a genuine seeking of the truth.
Tom.
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-03 @ 14:00 |
Well said! ![]()
sorry, just playing devil's advocate on my own argument there.
But, in practice, a lot of arguments which are put forward as being scientific do have ideological elements. The physical world exists, and science can aspire to perfectly objective knowledge, but insofar as scientists are people, they can never be sure they've achieved it.
Which is why observance of method and peer review are so vital. And 'good' scientists acknowledge that.
What I'm trying to argue against is the tendency to assume that because scientific knowledge is not perfect, it is just one 'opinion' among many.
Have you ever read 'What is this thing called science?' by Alan Chalmers?
| SeasideMan pro 2008-07-03 @ 15:28 |
Right, I'm with you.
That book is a new one on me - I'll look it up.
Tom.
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-04 @ 15:59 |
When I first started studying the nature of scientific debate, and understanding about unscientific uncertainty, conflicting theories etc etc, I felt a terrible sense of vertigo, and fell into a horrible post-modern, relativistic mire for a while...
Till I realised, that, of course, there IS a physical world with physical realtionships which exists externally to our understanding of it, and that even though our understandings can never be perfect, there ARE standards by which different explanations can be judged and compared.
This is how I expressed it in a conference paper I wrote in 2004:
'Discourse analysis is based on a ‘social constructionist’ approach to the social world, which understands the external world in which we live as being crucially determined by our beliefs and perceptions (Berger & Luckman, 1971). This is not to say that ‘the real world’ does not exist, or can be constructed in any way that we choose. This would clearly be absurd; if we hold a glass vase at a height of two metres above a concrete floor, and then let go, we cannot, merely through our own desires and beliefs, cause the vase to hover above the ground, or rise, or, on contact with the concrete, to bounce or retain its structural integrity. The physical properties of glass vases, concrete floors and the force we know as ‘gravity’ have an existence independent of our knowledge systems, and these have been established and tested empirically. However, the fact that we understand the force which draws the vase to the ground as ‘gravity’, as identified and codified by Isaac Newton in the 17th century, rather than the siren call of the concrete god luring the vase to its doom, is due to our position within a specific belief system.
In this admittedly rather ludicrous example, the superiority of the discourse of Newtonian physics over a belief in the mystical powers of the hypersonic concrete god has been confirmed through centuries of empirical confirmation and application of the procedures known as ‘the scientific method’. Nevertheless, Newton’s ‘laws’, indeed the ‘scientific method' itself, are the products of human thought and investigation, while our own acceptance, questioning or understanding of them is for each of us a social product of our education, mental capacities and personal experience.'
I know nobody likes a smart arse, but I'm rather proud of the 'mystical powers of the hypersonic concrete god' ![]()
Shades of Pastafarianism!
| Foxwriter [Member] 2008-07-04 @ 16:10 |
You are quite right, nobody likes a smartarse.
But, and speaking strictly as a man, if we are talking about a smart arse.....![]()
And, although Newton had the right idea, he did not consider the possibility that the apple, growing tired of the restriction imposed by a tyrannical tree, wrenched free and hurled itself to destruction.
And gravity got the blame.
Which was a shame.
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-04 @ 20:13 |
Appreciation of an attractive rear-end is not confined to either gender in particular. ![]()
Newton, however, was more renowned for his head - and who knows which gender he would have preferred anyway? (though Neal Stephenson expounds an interesting theory in 'The Baroque Cycle').
However, speaking of Newton's head, do you not think perhaps that the apple in fact took one look at it and felt an irresistible urge to propel itself towards said mighty appendage, thus ensuring its own place in history?
It's a thought.
PS What about sore ones?
| Foxwriter [Member] 2008-07-05 @ 15:00 |
Sore heads or rears?
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-05 @ 17:35 |
Bruised tail bone (ouch) ![]()
A pathetic and transparent appeal for sympathy.
| Foxwriter [Member] 2008-07-06 @ 21:24 |
A concussed coccyx?
Ouch!
Sympathy duly awarded and soothing cream dispatched.
How on earth did you do that?
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-06 @ 21:30 |
Slipped on the stairs and went straight down ![]()
A fortnight ago now.
Guess the only way to get it to heal is not to sit on it -
![]()
Tricky
| Foxwriter [Member] 2008-07-07 @ 12:09 |
I can see your predicament.
(I can. Really. My eyesight is phenomenal).
Writing standing up will be difficult, however scribbling in an elevated position should stimulate the higher senses.
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-07 @ 13:55 |
Oh, I DO like the photo 
A Foxy Whiskered Gentleman!
Filing, sadly, can be done perfectly comfortably standing up ![]()
My higher senses are in dire need of stimulation...
| SeasideMan pro 2008-07-05 @ 10:24 |
Excellent bit of writing, and I love the hypersonic concrete god! What you explained there is exactly what I couldn't get across to someone in a debate recently about evidence for god and how that compares to scientific evidence.
Tom.
| CassandraofTroy [Member] 2008-07-05 @ 10:41 |
Thanks ![]()
But it's easier to think up those kind of arguments when you're not actually trying to parry somebody else's points in a debate.
That's why I gave up on one debate I was involved in recently, and tried going back to first principles - the result being this original post.
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